Transcript

Andrew

How can we interpret same sex desires in a healing way? You've already touched on this, but elaborate and be as specific as you can be.

Marco

Yeah. A couple of things. You know, whenever I am experiencing same sex attraction, and maybe I'm. I'm looking to a guy outside of myself. And there's something about his masculinity that I'm. I'm being compelled by. It really is an opportunity for me to think, well, what's going on inside of me? Like, why do I feel diminished or less than why am I kind of wanting to grasp after this guy?

So it's it it's helpful to know that, okay, I, I'm a guy just like this guy is like, he has nothing to give me that I don't already have. And so, Jesus, help me to be okay with who I am and the kind of guy that I am. I, I I'm a man, so I need not grass after masculinity outside of myself. And usually in those moments, it's because maybe there's a challenge that I'm facing.

Maybe it's a challenge at home. Maybe it's a challenge at work. Something that's calling me to be more outer directed and life giving. There can be moments where it's like, oh, that is, is is compelling to me because I feel challenged in my masculinity. So reading that is, is actually been very helpful.

Another another idea that comes to my mind in moments of bumping up against same sex attraction is just being able to read, just to read it, you know that, oh, this isn't who I am. This isn't oh, this is my nature, quote unquote, or this is truly my destiny. No, it's it's a symptom of something deeper. And usually for me, it is an invitation into male friendship.

There's something that really diminishes about the the high octane same sex attraction that when I'm able to connect with a brother in, in incarnational connection that diminishes that, that mystique of, oh, I, I need this erotic thing. It's like, no, I actually don't. And I can read that and I can. I'm an adult. I can regulate those difficult emotions, and I can secure those good needs that I need.

Christie

I feel like I've discovered that same sex attraction is. It's like a window into my heart. It's like, oh, things are going on. I just think about this through the day. It's like my feelings make a better window than a door. Like, it's like I can see what's happening inside and I can go, oh, and and it's been a lot of work, like as a child of abuse and, and neglect.

There was some things that were really, really hard. And the Lord has walked me through healing of those things. And it is healing. It's like grieving the loss and grieving the things that are done against me. And that's a whole process is very, very sacred and very, very hard and very painful. But the Lord is very, very faithful. And so you would think, well, if that's all healed up, why do I still have same sex attraction?

And the answer now, if, if and when I have feelings is always because I'm in pain. And so sometimes I don't know, I'm in pain, but I'll start bending. And this happened when we, we lost a, we had a disrupted adoption and, we had the baby for a week. And at the end of the week, we lost the baby and son of a gun.

If I'm not bending towards a distant relative in law and I'm like, I freaked out. And I went to my husband and like, this is heaven. And he, you know, he's a smart guy. He looks at me, he goes, well, of course you are. Of course. Like, why would you not? But you are in so much. So let's just go to the cross with this grief.

Andrew

So I often I think, attachment loss and it goes so down so deep. And as like what, what is this sexualizing of, of a, just a real primitive disruption of. It's not to reduce it to any one particular wound. We have to discern and, and name that for ourselves. we have something deeply, internal and and helpful from the Lord. And looking at this as a symptom. Yeah.

And not an accusation or a definition, but something that can invite a deeper level of healing, which, many people would say to us in our approach to, queer stuff is it? Oh, you're just replaying conversion therapy. Reparative therapy? You're just praying away the gay. How is what we're talking about different from all those sound bites that want to slam the door? Right. The approach that we're talking about.

I want to, I want to redeem the word reparative here. People are also throwing out. That's the coercive shock treatment. So what that means is my feelings are an indicator that I'm trying to repair something. I'm trying to rectify something in me that was neglected, abused, confused, distorted by same sex feelings are an indicator of that.

I'm trying to repair something, so I'm going to look at those and glean what is precious from what is worthless and read myself, as we have been saying, well, that's reparative therapy, people. It it's a, it's a key to, to to looking at oneself compassionately, and wisely, I think, and finding a way forward. Nothing to do with repression, suppression, coercion, renouncing.

It's saying, I've got to take this seriously if I'm going to find the way through it that leads to life. Yeah. So I want to reclaim this reparative understanding I think is actually super helpful and freeing for men and women who are trying to make sense of their same sex desires in conflict.

Marco

I couldn't agree with you more. I just have to say, I think we can bring reason. There's limited, very limited thinking in this area today. So it really is. There's just this just think broader people.

Andrew

Yeah. And deeper and deeper, broader and deeper and don't fling sound that's that are just based on the traditions of men. Yeah. And that's what we're finding so much. Yeah. In the church today, even.

Christie

One of the things that I had to recognize as I started to walk in my healing journey, was that the there was an undercurrent of pain in my life that came from my family dysfunction. It started very young when I was very young. My my mother and father, they did not get along. And my mother tells me that my very first sentence was, I wish I was a boy.

And years later, I understood that to recognize the fact that womanhood was dangerous, it was dangerous to be a woman in my family. It was dangerous because we were not respected. It was dangerous because women were not cared for. It was dangerous because women were abused and I was abused and carrying that fear that that and I associated all of that with this happened because I am a girl. So I'm unsafe. I'm not covered.

I'm not blessed by men and men scare the heck out of me. But also, I don't know who I am. Like, I can't, I can't walk in any kind of confidence as a woman, but I'm not really a man either. But I was like, this is scary for me. And I remember describing that feeling as feeling like I didn't.

I couldn't breathe, deep breaths would be like, I, I would feel like it was too dangerous a world for me to feel at peace with. what was really fascinating and wonderful is that Jesus did meet me there. Jesus did bless me. And it it didn't happen overnight. It was more of a sense of, you're not alone in this, and it's got not going to last forever. And the pain that I felt.

So the pain itself found its home in the cross. There was something about being able to go before Jesus on the cross and let him have my pain and and know that it found its home. I had this crucifix that was wooden and it had a metal Jesus on it, really pointy.

And so, I would, I would like, press my hand on the metal of the crucifix as a sort of a way to transfer my pain, like I could feel the pain of it. And there was something about that that allowed that to be very real for me. am pressing this pain into its home where Jesus can really take it.

And that that has been a really helpful, beautiful sort of space for me to be able to return to. There have been some things in the last couple of years that have reopened some of those wounds, and I'm like, oh, that hurts so much. And then I can roll that pain into the cross. I can just go, oh Jesus, you have this pain. And and he can hold it.

And I think even that is an ongoing, intimacy that I have with Jesus that I can take this pain and let him have it. And it is very real. I mean, the pain of sexual abuse that goes way down into the gut and being able to to know that Jesus can go that far down, it's not too deep for him, has been a really powerful experience for me.

Daniel

My mom was, dealing with a lot of emotional instability in her life. She was in and out of the hospital for a lot of her mental health issues, and my father was not present. She divorced him when I was very young, and this counselor heard my story and at the end of it, encouraged me to embrace the gay identity because I told him that I was experiencing same sex attraction.

My life worsened, and there were times where I didn't even want to be alive. I thought that it would be better to be dead than alive. And at this time I had a Christian neighbor. We had just moved into a house in Texas. My mom had just bought a house and this neighbor was a Christian.

She was a woman, married, had three girls that she was raising, and she saw my mom raising my brother and I by her, by my mom raising my brother and I by herself. And so she would see me, this neighbor would see me getting off the school bus and she, would see me tease by these students and called all these horrible names, really, horrible things about being gay identified and all these horrible names.

And she began to pray for me. She began to ask the Lord for ways to reach out to me and and be there for me. So one day I was contemplating suicide, and I didn't want to live my life anymore. And I heard a knock at the door and it was her.

It was this neighbor, and she told my mom that I had five minutes to get my shoes on and to go with her to church, and so I did. I went to church, but I was dressed very effeminate. I had this, I'll never forget it. I had this, like, rainbow poncho on with these bell bottom jeans and these like, tennis shoes that were like platform tennis shoes.

And I had this big curly afro hairdo and hardly any eyebrows. And I just thought to myself, this is who I am, you know? Or this is where I'm at in my life right now. So I went with her to this church, and I remember walking in and everyone was scared of me.

I mean, they all just kind of split the room and it seemed like they all split the room. the pastor's wife, you know, had a word for me and she told the worship team to kind of dial down, and she said that she felt like all of the men, young and old, needed to pray for me in the room and that everyone needed to just gather around me, and that she really sensed that the father just wanted to speak something to me.

And as I as I responded, I remember thinking, oh my gosh, maybe this is my opportunity to run, but I didn't. I responded to the time of prayer, and all of the men started to pray for me. And I remember I started weeping because something inside of me just erupted. But these people gathered around me. All the men did.

Taylor

So a fracture in my early life that I think probably contributed to my sexual brokenness as an adult would be, the divorce of my parents, my family was super close. my mom left my dad for a woman at the age of 16, and that was confusing. And that, like you told you taught us our whole lives that this wasn't, you know, God's design. And yet you want to just overnight, like, switch that up. That was hard.

That was really hard. That was the beginning of, like, a lot of abandonment, I think. And so that began my journey of, like, sex with anyone and everyone. And so that was the direction of the next five years until I, by the grace of God, was able to move in with my grandparents who saved my life. And, That is when I had I was able to be repented. They gave me presents.

My pops to pastor my grands, like, pastor's wife. And yet they never forced me to go back to church and do stuff. And so I think that. It just worked. It was so it was so by their generosity and, that was the beginning of let me talk about this pain. And then through being in, a Holy Spirit community, a church community that's actually when these, My sexuality came up the most.

So, so much healing from, you know, the shame and the woman at the. Well, kind of. That's who I identified with or the prodigal son. And I got to experience that through the hands and feet of the church and people.

Amanda

So my mom was pretty depressed when I was growing up, and for a lot of reasons, most of which are not her fault, but also my response to her. I actually thought that she rejected me. So I internalize that my mom rejected me because she was not really capable of being the mom that I longed for her to be, and she scared me.

So growing into adulthood, I really felt this deep rejection and was trying to, reach for women in that. But there's, there's a couple things that really God used to bring me healing. And one was just a miraculous moment with my sisters. And in this group we had two leaders, some other participants.

And there was a time where I confessed that I felt other than and in this group, I felt like I did not belong or that I was rejected. Right. And these women prayed for me. He laid hands on me very simply, very beautifully, and just prayed that that I was a woman that belonged with them. And the Holy Spirit bore witness to this truth deep in my heart.

And this was one of many, healing moments that that God really began to heal this deep wound of, of feminine, rejection or, a feminine hunger that I longed for. So, so when I realized this, this rejection wound in relationship to my mom, I knew that I had a lot of work to do.

I wanted my mom to change and I would shake my fist at the sky and I would shake my fist honestly, sometimes at her, that she was not changing. And the reality is that my mom was a very, very broken woman, a very loving woman, but a very broken woman, and she just did not have that in her.

And so as I sought the Lord as I continue to stay in a place of surrender and, humility before him seeking his face, I began to love her and accept her for who she was and for where she was, and that was not and that easy for me. That was very hard for me. I had to go through the stages of grief that seemed to be endless.

But I describe it as kind of being on a merry go round of forgiveness. I kept doing it and the scenery was not changing, and then all of a sudden the scenery began to change and the scenery was. I began to see all the good in my mom. There was good there. And I began to see it.

And the ways in which, I was like her, I stopped hating, my cheekbones and my face her dry and weird sense of humor, which I also have. I just began to not hate those things, and I truly desired healing for her and told her, I want this for you. God has more for you. And I'm praying for you. And I love you.

And, and I hold that I held that posture by the grace of God, up until the day she died. And she died of cancer. Unfortunately, it was very quick, about three weeks. And I sat at her deathbed and I said, mama, I'm not leaving you. And and that was hard. And, and I also know that was Jesus in me, loving her, to the very end. And it was beautiful. And it was hard. But I know that is the fruit of the work that God has done in my life through living waters. I.

Daniel

But also all of the other women too were in the room and there wasn't a dry eye in the room. And I remember opening up my eyes and seeing some of these men, some of the teenagers I went to high school with weeping with me, and it was like they had entered in to my suffering with me, and they just offered Jesus to me. the Lord was able to come into those areas and speak to my heart concerning the places that he wanted to console me in regards to my mom not being able to be there emotionally for me because she would be there one minute and then emotionally she would be unavailable for months sometimes.

So the Lord had to touch those places in my life and still in an ongoing way, I'm thankful that I can invite Jesus into that place to ground me, to touch me in those areas where sometimes it feels like he's so far away from me and it's easy to sort of retreat into an old dispensation of despair and realize, no, I don't have to live there anymore.

Bonnie

So one of the most painful wounds was the interaction with my dad and I with this perceived abuse. And and so my mom, what happened was there in the divorce, there in the middle of a custody battle for for me and my brother and my sister. I'm smack dab in the middle. And my mom caught me in the hallway and just asked me, did I remember my dad being inappropriate?

And at eight years old, I was trying to wrap my head around what inappropriate meant. And so I was like, maybe, I don't know. And so she got her answer and left without telling me it wasn't my fault. Without touching me, reassuring me nothing. It was just as awkward moment, and I had to sit with the realization, of, oh, my gosh, my dad was inappropriate with me.

I had come down from breakfast, come down to breakfast, like, the day after it happened and said, dad, I think you mistook me for a mom last night. You know, so I was aware of it, but I had I had really buried it, and but I but again, perceived or not, the effects of that just I felt damaged, I felt broken, I felt, irredeemable. Really? Like, how is this going to work?

How am I going to function, as a woman in light of that abuse and what that did to my, you know, just disintegrating things in my heart And so as I'm going through this living waters class and learning about the Lord, paying for not just my sins, but the sins done against me, I went into my small group after a talk on abuse and I was like, I feel really like pain all in here.

I can just feel anxiety all in my gut where I carry, you know, the weight of my stress normally right here. And I was like, this is uncomfortable. And so my small group leader says, well, let's ask the Lord what's going on. And so, and so he just closed her eyes and said, come, Holy Spirit. And immediately I pictured my bedroom, that I was in growing up post-divorce, and I was in just deep pain.

And so I picture myself, you know, weeping on the bed. And so my small group leader said, where is the Lord? Because he's always been with you. He's never left you alone. And I was like, he's at the door. He's over there. And she's like, do you want him to come in? And I said, no, I don't. What surprised me. And she said, ask him why.

And I was like, why don't I want you to come in? Because I'm afraid you're going to abuse me like my dad did. And as soon as it came out of my mouth, I was like, oh, that's a lie. I I'm whole enough to know that's not true. I know, I know God the Father enough. And so I just said, but I recognize that is a lie.

So, yes, Lord, I do want you to come in in fear and trembling. Please come in. And I just feel the intimacy of God in a way that I never felt before. I let him into, the place of neglect because that room represented neglect for me. And, and into that place that was just bleeding. Felt him come in. And the intimacy I felt with the Lord in that moment, I had never felt before.

I never felt so safe, so love, so like his. I could feel his sorrow over my sorrow. And I could press that, that place of pain into his place of pain. Because who, who has, who has borne our pain like can't you know he he's sat in it with me. And when the weeping was done, and I felt the safest ever in my entire life...

Dean

So early on, I had begun work with a therapist, and one thing that we were looking at in relationship to my dad was this unrealistic fear that I had of his authority in my life. And so we spent a lot of time with the therapist, kind of digging and trying to figure it out, and I couldn't for the life of me figure it out.

And then he said, well, would you would you think your parents would be willing to sit in on a session with us? And, you know, I could talk with them. And so I asked them and they they lovingly said, yeah. And they came to the therapist with me, and we sat down for the night before the the time with the therapist. I had a dream. And in the dream I was sitting on the kitchen floor.

I was three years old. I knew I was three years old because of what house we were in and where we were at, and I could see very clearly the house that I was in. I could see pictures on the wall, and I was just sitting there playing by myself on the floor. And then I heard a lot of screaming, in the back of the house.

So I got up and I walked down the hallway, and at the end of the hallway was my sister's room. And when I turned into my sister's room, I saw my dad backhand my sister, and she went flying against the wall. And I just stood there in terror, didn't know what to do. It just panicked, you know, terror at the sight of that. And, as I'm. And this was my dream.

So the next morning in therapy, the therapist is talking with my parents and trying to figure out, you know, explain what we're looking at and looking for. And do you have any idea, why he might be where this fear came from?

And they they couldn't recall anything. And then he looked at me and said, well, how about you, Dean? Do you have any more insight? And I said, well, I had this dream last night. And I shared the dream. And then my mom started crying and the therapist said, well, Barbara, what's what's going on? And my mom said, I remember when that happened. And I remember. I remember seeing that Dean had witnessed that.

And I remember thinking that's that is going to affect the rest of his life. And, Through that, it all came out that my dad, who, you know, was a very sober, gentle minister, pastor, very godly, very legalistic, very straight and narrow, all I ever knew him to be. But he didn't get saved himself until I was three. Prior to that, he he was an alcoholic and was was rarely home without, you know, doing his stuff.

My mom seldom saw him. He was hardly around, but when he was home, he was very abusive and angry and, So the Lord use that to just heal, connect some dots for me to, to be able to acknowledge. What that did to my heart, to my, you know, three year old self, you know, and really, met me in it to bring me to a place of, of one acknowledging the damage done from it and to really forgiving my dad for the role that he played. You know, in my, in my real disordered sense of reality.

Marco

And so it is. It isn't just this, this sort of whatever that conversion therapy pray away. The gay thing is that that sort of kind of shock therapy, coercive approach. It's more saying, okay, I acknowledge this. I acknowledge that this is familiar for me. And I just I want to go deeper. I want to understand the meaning behind my same sex attraction. There's meaning here that needs mining. And I want to mine that with Jesus and with trusted people. I mean that that's hardly coercive.

Taylor

And now I, I never thought I would be where I'm at today and have the freedom that I have today and have living community and not have to be secretive about this, and just know that who I am or who God says I am, I am. I need people to remind me that, of course, but, it's Jesus really does miracles.

Morgan

I think there are many wounds that the Lord has has come in to heal, I think a significant one was my father, where he tried the best he could. Yet my needs for him in a particular way, to see me, to advocate for me, to let me know that I can make it. In this life I felt were eclipsed by a mom that was very loud and reactive to him, and it was confusing.

So I think the healing came when I began to go, oh, I had a father who really did love me as best he could, and I could forgive him. And I remember quickly in the healing process, our relationship mended quickly. He knew what was going on. I was I brought my parents into the whole healing process and he repented.

In other words, he I think I don't think he would use that term, but I remember getting letters from him. I had, at this point, I had moved away. I'd never gotten a letter from my father and his expression of loving me. It was it was beautiful. In other words, God was at work at him. He was responding. God was at work in me, and I was responding.

And quickly there was a trust in my earthly father that really made a significant difference in the wounding that I had had for him.

Marco

I also realized, too, that I had to I had to somehow forgive my dad. I had to feel that the the gaps that I felt like he had a part in, but I also had to forgive him. Just the idea of speaking about these things to my dad, which, yeah, kind of awkward. So my parents come visit my wife and I, and I thought, this is it.

I'm going to I'm going to get a time with my dad, you know? So I'm like, dad, let's go to Starbucks and we're going to I just want to talk to you about a few things. And so I did I was I, I just shared with my dad, this is where I felt like you weren't there for me. This is what I, what I think is a contributing factor to my experience of same sex attractions.

And I'm not blaming you, but I'm just saying you weren't there for me in the ways that I really needed you to be there for me. And I just want you to know that. I want you to know that. And I want you to know that I forgive you for all of that.

And my dad, in his way, he just he said, I know I, I, I know, I know, I wasn't there for you as I wanted to be. And, he wasn't therapeutic in the way he received me. It wasn't like he was becoming my therapist and counselor and pastor, but he responded in the way that he did, and it honestly released me to love him. And respect him even more.

So that initial injury from my father, I think in a way, yes, that has he has a part in that. But there was a way in which I was holding on to a resentment that I had to own. It wasn't all my father's wounding of me. I also needed to to to own where I had my own sin in it. And it freed me to, I think, become, a better man.

There was a time in which I was trying out for this team, and, I thought I was doing great. I'm like, I'm going to make this team. It's going to be great. It's going to be good for me. I want these friends and and I, I didn't make the team, but my dad just was so silent about it.

You know, he it wasn't that he shamed me about it, but he just didn't never talk to me about it. There was a vacancy of, hey, you did a good job or I'm rooting for you. It was so subtle, but it was. It's something in my memory where I needed my father to be more activated in attuning to me, I was more of a sensitive kid. I needed that attuning.

And in in his lack of attuning, I. I felt an injury by that. I felt that there was, there was a way in which I started to mistrust my dad's capacity to fight for me and to advocate for me, and I, I started to, to foster, a real judgment against my dad. There was a way in which I wanted to, to not be like him. There. I, I really fostered a, a a real I don't want to say hatred, but it was just a resentment towards my father.

Amanda

You know, I went to therapy for two years, but, but healing belongs to Jesus in his church, and so I, I interest, people because my wounding came through people and my healing comes through people. And so that's why it was so good for me to surrender, in these deep places of wounding to the church, because I knew that I needed her even when I was afraid of her and didn't want to, share the depths of my wounds with her.

When it came to entrusting my wounds to the church to wise, wise, empowered, laypeople in the church. I remember a time of prayer that I had, and I was. I was scared, and I wanted to leave Living Waters. I wanted to I just wanted to be, like, get on a plane and leave because I was I was afraid.

I was deeply afraid because there was something being poked at in me that felt very, very raw and very, very deep. And I remember the Lord saying, I have you right where I want you. And if you can't trust them, I want you to trust me by trusting them.

And that gave me the courage to to open up this deep wound and to to show really what felt like nakedness to me, to show myself and over time, I began to see why people could be trusted, in the way that they spoke to me, in the way that they prayed over me and the way that they bore with me, and really didn't try to give me a silver bullet.

No one ever said, like, here, take this. Say these five prayers in this Hail Mary, and you'll have a husband tomorrow. That was never said to me. What was said to me is, you're a woman and it's good. And Jesus will do his healing work. A lot of my healing, you know, came through this, this, this quiet listening with other people. -END.

Daniel

I think it's so important to entrust the wounds that I experience first in my life and my story, because it allows me to be known for real, be known and I don't have to be afraid that I'm going to be rejected or abandoned. I have always found comfort and solace in God, yes, but also in his healing community. And I find that there's no going back because I'm surrounded by God's love.

I see it every day through the eyes of other people who have experienced freedom and healing. And it's it's forward. It's forward, and it's it's one word to more. And I'm so thankful for that, that God gives us the opportunity to experience that on this side of eternity, but also to get ready for when we meet him face to face and that's what I'm looking forward to.

It's pointing at something deeper. You just haven't looked yet.

Those who've wrestled with this too, through thoughtful discussion and individual interviews.

What the desire is actually saying.

What if the attraction is pointing at something deeper than you assume? The group reframes same-sex desire as a signal worth reading, often a longing for a father's love, for belonging, for your own footing, and what changes when you start to listen to it differently.